Thread: 6k full frame vs 6k S35

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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    I don't disagree at all with you.

    I'm just saying we never used "crop factors" in the past because there wasn't a format that we were comparing to as the "pinnacle" format.

    We use angle of view. It's format agnostic. Convert to whatever format you're using. Including vistavision / 135...No presumption of a common base format all your lensing knowledge is based on.



    I think you're projecting.

    I started in photography and still practice it as much as I did when I was starting out. Today I shot X-PAN and Leica S.

    I just think it doesn't make sense for cinematographers to have their lens understandings transmuted through a format that doesn't have a history in moving images and doesn't even match on aspect ratio alone and isn't even shot as a format in much regular work anyone sees on screens.

    Not that it matters, because the world has moved on. And mostly I see a lot more confusion about crop factors and the differences in formats than ever before. Why is that you think ?

    JB
    Symantics and the terms used make the current 'Full Frame' as in 'Vista Vision' the standard, while it's nothing but a size. We should call that sensor area a crop from Medium Format (which dosen't sound so large or 'full') instead and see what will happen. I've been using the tiny 1" sensor on the BMPCC without any issue - don't crave razor thin DOF - and if need be, my old Pentax SMC F1.4 or more recent Pentax F1.2 can offer that aplenty on barely 1/3 of a Full Frame.

    Very good point Mr.Browley and illustrated eloqeuntly!
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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw View Post
    A 6K or 8K FF camera from BMD is without a doubt coming soon.

    ZCam’s claim of 15stops of DR is dubious at best. They claim 14 Stops on their M4/3 4K & s35 6K cameras, which obviously isn’t the case.

    Also, there is nothing wrong with the 2.8K 3X Crop of the current 6K Pocket, it’s a Super 16 frame size. It’s the same size as the original Pocket sensor. I’ve seen several YouTube personalities making ridiculously stupid comments like “A 3 times crop is unusable” and spreading misinformation like wildfire. It annoys me.

    The entire film The Curious Case of Benjamin Button was shot on a 2/3” sensor, which has a 4X crop.
    This is a bit pedantic but...

    The 2.8K Crop is actually 2.14X, which makes sense, because Super 16 is roughly half the width of Super 35. The crop itself though, is closer to 16mm than Super 16. Small difference, but worth mentioning. If you're looking to calculate FOV, the 2.8K crop is using roughly a 10.78 mm wide window.

    Benjamin Button is still only a horizontal crop of 2.6X when compared to the Pocket 6K, or 2.7X when compared to S35.

    So yeah, a 3X crop would be unusable, but luckily it's not a 3X crop.
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  3. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyLo View Post
    This is a bit pedantic but...

    The 2.8K Crop is actually 2.14X, which makes sense, because Super 16 is roughly half the width of Super 35. The crop itself though, is closer to 16mm than Super 16. Small difference, but worth mentioning. If you're looking to calculate FOV, the 2.8K crop is using roughly a 10.78 mm wide window.

    Benjamin Button is still only a horizontal crop of 2.6X when compared to the Pocket 6K, or 2.7X when compared to S35.

    So yeah, a 3X crop would be unusable, but luckily it's not a 3X crop.
    I like that you use S35 as the base, but crop factors are measured in comparison with Full Frame for some reason, not S35.

    The crop factor for 2.8K windowed is 3.388, as shown here from News Shooter: https://www.newsshooter.com/wp-conte...51-800x600.png

    The crop factor for S16 is 3, and the crop factor for a 2/3” sensor is 3.93: https://cvp.com/support/page/image-s...ize-comparison
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  4. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw View Post
    I like that you use S35 as the base, but crop factors are measured in comparison with Full Frame for some reason, not S35.

    The crop factor for 2.8K windowed is 3.388, as shown here from News Shooter: https://www.newsshooter.com/wp-conte...51-800x600.png

    The crop factor for S16 is 3, and the crop factor for a 2/3” sensor is 3.93: https://cvp.com/support/page/image-s...ize-comparison

    I think it's common to use full frame as the reference format when talking about crop factor, but it's not a rule. Because it's a calculation, it seems more useful to say "Compared to format X, format Y has a crop factor of Z". In this case, "full frame" isn't a helpful reference for people who aren't photographers and haven't used DSLRs for video/film work.

    Ablecine developed a pretty useful tool for comparing the field of view of different sensors based on size and recording resolution. You can compare any camera/resolution in the tool and it outputs FoV and crop factor.

    https://www.abelcine.com/articles/bl...ne-fov-tool-20

    Shawn
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  5. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw View Post
    I like that you use S35 as the base, but crop factors are measured in comparison with Full Frame for some reason, not S35.

    The crop factor for 2.8K windowed is 3.388, as shown here from News Shooter: https://www.newsshooter.com/wp-conte...51-800x600.png

    The crop factor for S16 is 3, and the crop factor for a 2/3” sensor is 3.93: https://cvp.com/support/page/image-s...ize-comparison
    The way your post is phrased, it seemed to me you were talking about how much the windowed areas are cropped in from the full sensor. So obviously the reference is the full sensor. It makes 0 sense to talk about what a windowed area is relative to 135 when the camera is Super 35. We're not talking about different cameras here, it's the same camera lol

    But fair enough, those number check out. However, if you're going to talk about crops relative to 135, at least use the word "factor" so everyone's on the same page. Because windowed areas are literally a crop of the full sensor, it makes things confusing if it's unclear.
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  6. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnMi View Post
    I think it's common to use full frame as the reference format when talking about crop factor, but it's not a rule. Because it's a calculation, it seems more useful to say "Compared to format X, format Y has a crop factor of Z". In this case, "full frame" isn't a helpful reference for people who aren't photographers and haven't used DSLRs for video/film work.

    Ablecine developed a pretty useful tool for comparing the field of view of different sensors based on size and recording resolution. You can compare any camera/resolution in the tool and it outputs FoV and crop factor.

    https://www.abelcine.com/articles/bl...ne-fov-tool-20

    Shawn
    I actually made an app on my phone that does this. I can put in a camera and a lens and see what focal length would achieve the same angle of view. It's very handy when dealing with a variety of cameras and I never have to think about crop factors.

    It's also got some handy calculators for other things I might need. Like how many stops between two ISOs, f-stops, or shutter angles.
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  7. #47  
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    pCAM PRO does FOV conversions too. It’s a Swiss Army knife app that everyone should have. Seriously.

    No association other than being a customer since they made them for when they ran on palm portables before app stores.

    JB
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  8. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyLo View Post
    It makes 0 sense to talk about what a windowed area is relative to 135 when the camera is Super 35. We're not talking about different cameras here, it's the same camera lol
    I agree 100%. My original post was just me complaining about how YouTube personalities keep claiming that “a 2.8k 3x crop is unusable.” Everyone today compares everything to full frame, even if they don’t use full frame. These “reviewers” on YouTube talk as if anything less than full frame is somehow a lesser format.

    3x crop of full frame is S16, and S16 is in no way an unusable format.
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  9. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyLo View Post
    I actually made an app on my phone that does this. I can put in a camera and a lens and see what focal length would achieve the same angle of view. It's very handy when dealing with a variety of cameras and I never have to think about crop factors.

    It's also got some handy calculators for other things I might need. Like how many stops between two ISOs, f-stops, or shutter angles.
    Very nice!
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  10. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw View Post
    I agree 100%. My original post was just me complaining about how YouTube personalities keep claiming that “a 2.8k 3x crop is unusable.” Everyone today compares everything to full frame, even if they don’t use full frame. These “reviewers” on YouTube talk as if anything less than full frame is somehow a lesser format.

    3x crop of full frame is S16, and S16 is in no way an unusable format.
    I know you weren't talking directly to me, but I didn't catch that you were being facetious. I agree with you completely. :-)

    Shawn
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