Thread: S16 Lenses on UMB

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  1. #1 S16 Lenses on UMB 
    I am interested in using a UM Broadcast as an S16 Digital cam.

    In general are S16mm lenses good enough for 4K resolution?

    I have a couple of Angenieux S16/16mm lenses I would like to use ....the S16mm 11.5-138mm T2.3 and in 16mm the 10-120mm T2.

    I dont think I would have too much trouble with either of those two as they are both very good lenses. The 11.5-138mm is with Visual now having a CLA done and the 10-120mm was bought as new old stock - never used and is currently with Van Diemens. I asked Van Diemens to give it a CLA but they have come back and said there is no need -everything is working perfectly and since its never been used they suggest to use it and get some work out of it before doing a CLA on it.

    I am sure those lenses hold up to HD no problem. But how about 4K res?

    I am also interested in some Optex conversion lenses for S16 but I am not sure how those would hold up. I know there were some Canon lenses that Optex rehoused for S16. I wonder if being Canon glass that was rehoused, if that Canon glass would only be SD glass and not do so well for HD/UHD. Thoughts ?
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  2. #2  
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    Wollongong, NSW Australia
    I really depends from lens to lens. If it's C-mount, then unlikely to resolve 4k. Of those, I believe the Angenieux 15-150mm T3.1 is the best.

    However, Angenieux, Cooke & Canon made some superb S16 glass in PL mount. Zeiss made a 11-110 too.

    I use a Canon 8-64mm T2.4 which is superb. Resolves beautifully on the UMB, and a really useful 8x zoom range (135 equiv = 24-192). It's parfocal with continuous aperture through the range. And it's really well balanced. Most of the other S16 zooms (eg. Canon 7-63/T2.6, Angenieux 7-81mm T2.4) are more front heavy, and don't balance as well on the shoulder.

    But many of those PL mount zooms should resolve 4K, albeit, with their own character. I'd love to try the Cooke 9.5-53mm T1.6, but it's SOO expensive second hand.

    Here's a list of PL mount S16 glass I came up with a while back when choosing my lens. They are all vintage and probably not manufactured anymore.

    Canon 6.6-66mm T2.7-3.3
    Canon 7-63mm T2.6
    Canon 8-64mm T2.4
    Canon 11.5-138mm T2.5
    Canon 10.6-180mm T2.7
    Canon 11-165mm T2.5

    Zeiss 11-110mm T2.2 Mk III
    Zeiss 12-120mm T2.4

    Optex-Canon 10.5-210mm T2.4

    Angenieux 7-81mm T2.4
    Angenieux 11.5-138mm T2.3

    Cooke 9.5-53mm T1.6
    Cooke 10.4-52mm T2.8
    Cooke 10.6-52mm T1.65
    Last edited by trispembo; 03-25-2019 at 05:39 AM.
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  3. #3  
    Hi Trispembo,

    I see you are down in the "Gong". I dont live in Aussie anymore but did live in Sydney for 35 years. Its always interesting to chat to people on the net from places you remember so well. We used to always stop at that take away/Restaurant by the side of the freeway on top of the mountain on the way down the hill into Wollongong and take in the magnificent view of the Illawarra region and the coast line.

    Re the lenses. For those who dont know it, this page is an interesting resource...

    Like you I drool over those Cookes in S16. I only ever saw one of those for sale (the 9.5-53mm) and it had scratched rear elements which cant be replaced today (unless you can find a donor lens from somewhere but that would be almost impossible) so I gave that one a miss.

    My 11.5-138 is PL mount. Its HR glass so high quality. I believe its circa 1990's or a bit later depending on where in the production run my lens was made. So not a very very old Angenieux at all (some of these Angie's go back into the 1950's)

    My 10-120 T2 is not very well known since its so rare. This page shows you what it is.... . I managed to find one brand new unused sitting in its box unopened on a shelf all those years. I was expecting to have to replace the grease in it but the head tech at Vans says no its fine. Angenieux are expensive but the quality of manufacture shines through in things like this.

    This page tells a bit of the story on these lenses. The article goes on to say "This is one of the sharpest zoom lenses ever made for Super 16 cinematography. Resolution in the center of the image is 200 lines per millimeter. This zoom lens outperforms many prime lenses for Super 16, especially at the edges of the frame."

    From that it would seem that these Angenieux's are great performers, but there was no UHD back then, hence my wondering how these lenses would go on the UMB with that S16 4K chip. At the end of the day its not that costly to try it by buying one of these UMB and see. I am going to wait for NAB first just in case there is an updated UMB. I highly doubt it, but you never know.

    Re the Optex - Canon 10.5-210mm. I am intrigued by this lens. I want to do a little bit of wildlife work and the reach of this lens is appealing to me. However......what I am concerned about is how sharp these optics are. I dont doubt for one second that the rehousing is top notch (Optex after all) but I do worry about the donor glass they used for the rehouse. Given the vintage of these lens is approx 2002 is the Canon glass SD Video lens glass of the era? I'll grant you it must have been the best glass available at the time, but at the time there was no HD for Canon to design for.

    I did find this about the Optex conversion.......

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________

    "Optex has been offering these for years, available in the US from ZGC.

    Century also has conversions. There's two schools for these conversions, the simple relay adapter lenses that change the mount, magnify the image a bit to extend the focal length so that it covers the S-16 frame and correct for the multiplane focusing of the colors (forget the name for that) to the flat field for film (say that five times quickly). The other is a complete overhaul and rehousing of the optics to transform them into dedicated cine lenses. The advantage of the simple converters such as the Abekas system from Optex (forget what Century calls theirs) is that the lens can still be used for video and in film use you can still use the zoom control motor on the lens with a simple adapter cable, plus it is a much cheaper way to go. But I question the optical quality, as this is forcing the light to jump through some additional optical hoops.

    On the other hand, the rehoused lenses are excellent in both optical performance and physical robustness. Optex converts a couple of Canon zooms to a 10.3-216 (20x) and a massive 14.5-480 (33x). They used to make a 7-63 until Canon came out with their own. Century uses Fujinon glass to make an 11.5-215 (19x) that sells brand new for a paltry $10,000--fantastic deal. All of these lenses offer great optical quality. Remember that the beloved Canon zooms have all been reworked versions of their video lenses. I was extremely impressed with the quality of the shorter Optex/Canon and the Century/Fuji when I first checked them out at trade shows, and that opinion was confirmed with later tests and practical experience. The lenses do breathe some, but this is to be expected with 19x & 20x zooms. The colors, contrast, corner sharpness, flare resistance, chromatic aberration, and barrelling all performed well. Although such long range lenses aren't quite as sharp as a modern prime, I'd say you could confidently intercut them (especially in video). The Century/Fuji isn't quite as cold as the Optex/Canon, which means that the Optex probably is closer to the look of Zeiss primes, but again I wouldn't have an issue intercutting them all."

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________

    But that does not address my concerns about what is the actual Donor glass? Is it Video SD glass rehoused into an S16 PL mount body? The article i pasted here does mention the Optex conversions are reworks of Canon Video glass of the day.

    The other way to go here is to get a high end HD B4 Canon of Fuji lens and use that with the B4 lens mount that the UMB comes with. The only issue with that approach is the glass in the B4 mount that is used to increase the image circle of the BD HD video lens.

    Just no sure which way to go here.

    Edit : Typo's
    Last edited by M&M's; 03-25-2019 at 07:12 AM.
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  4. #4  
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    Sep 2012
    Like a digital SR3 . 4K is a perfect combo with S16 glass. Shot a bunch with the OG Pocket using the 8-64mm and SLR Magic primes. Too much aliasing, or too soft, never the happy middle. Now I shoot HD with the Micro 4K/S16 combo and everything just clicks. It's seeing the lens' image the way it was meant to be seen.

    You've probably run across Cinema-Technic, Jorge is a great resource, good communication. He won't touch any of my antiques so I have the work done at Visual Products as well. Which is why I would avoid most of the Optex rehouses, too rare. Finding the correct shims for a workhorse like the 8-64mm can be tricky, let alone an Optex 10.5-210, though personally I'm not that familiar with the converted lenses. I had a Zeiss/Abekus 12-120 similar to the Optex but the old Zeiss lenses use the same shims as the newer ones so they're easy to source.

    If you're really after resolution I believe Zeiss are the sharpest and fastest, the tradeoff being CA, breathing, rotating fronts, and poor close focus.

    Canon are definitely more balanced overall, slower and softer than the Zeiss with less CA, breathing, and near macro level close focus.

    Never used the Angenieux, you'll have to let us know.

    Good Luck

    P.S. Just in case you're looking for something fresher.........
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  5. #5  
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    Last edited by Howie Roll; 03-25-2019 at 08:11 AM. Reason: edit turned doublepost
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  6. #6  
    Howie......about that Micro 4K

    I was also wondering about that. This is the lens section, maybe I should take this over to the General section. I am intrigued by the UMB but know little about the sensor. How does this UMB sensor compare the micro 4K? And the 4.6k ? or the P4K ?

    P.S..THAT LENS !! oh noooooooo. Temptation. For some odd reason I cant stop buying S16 glass !

    P.P.S..Howie, just made an offer on that lens of yours. Let me know as I am considering pulling the trigger on a 10.5-210mm Optex conversion lens as I found one for sale. Please dont put anymore lenses up for sale !
    Last edited by M&M's; 03-25-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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  7. #7  
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    Wollongong, NSW Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    I am intrigued by the UMB but know little about the sensor. How does this UMB sensor compare the micro 4K?
    Those cameras (Micro 4k & UMB) use the same sensor (Super 16/UHD).

    I have no experience shooting with the Micro Studio 4K (others here have - Denny & Howie for starters), but my understanding is that the UMB has better cooling and processing, so manages to pull a cleaner/lower noise image from the sensor.

    Having shot quite a lot on the UMB, I have to say it's a great camera. The modern S16 cine camera for sure. It's not a low light beast, but what S16 film camera is? However, the handling, compatibility with S16 glass and the fact you can change the mount and whack on a HD B4 lens is fantastic. Probably one of the most useful cameras BMD has ever produced.
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by trispembo View Post
    Those cameras (Micro 4k & UMB) use the same sensor (Super 16/UHD)
    Good to know. I was going to read through many posts on the board here to figure this out - is it the same sensor as the Micro 4K? Well now I know. I have been out of the loop for quite some time on these cameras - that pesky real life has a habit of getting in the way. I was all set for for rigging up the BMPCC to my S16 glass, but the UMB is much better. Its nice to have a digi S16 cam available !

    The big question right now is, what is about to be announced? Could we be lucky enough to get an UMB with an S16 version of the pocket 4K sensor?

    Re the Optex conversions. I have done a huge amount of digging on this. It really looks like these conversions are SD Video glass rehoused. I found this.....

    "Canon 14.5-480mm, 33x zoom lens, (f2.6), PL mount; front and rear caps; sunshade, soft cap.

    Plus Colcine S16 X2 PL mount extender, with front and rear caps.

    This is a SD manual lens. It is Optex modified, putting manual cine-style info on the barrel and a PL mount on the rear. There is no servo unit attached. " at this link

    As well someone here pointed me to this.....

    If you take a careful look at that J20 lens, it seems as though this particular lens only has the Optex conversion on the front half of the lens and is the same front end as the 10.5-210 Optex full conversion.

    I think this shows that the Optex-Canon conversions are really nice rehouse lenses but that the originating glass is SD Video lens glass - hardly exciting or even good enough for today' cameras.

    A bit more info on the Canon J20AX8BIRS that I think is the donor glass for the Optex 10.5-210mm rehouse lens

    It looks like the Optex 14.5-480mm rehouse lens may well be the J33aX15B IAS as the donor glass for this rehouse.
    Last edited by M&M's; 03-26-2019 at 12:39 AM.
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  9. #9  
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  10. #10  

    The S16 Canon lens arrived at its destination. Thanks a bunch for this lovely lens.
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