Thread: Pocket 4K red clipping

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  1. #41  
    Thank you Jamie for the Lut. That will be very useful until BM finds a direct solution to this clipping issue.
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  2. #42  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    Yep, P4K is native ISO400 and this makes BMPCC theoretically one stop more sensitive and one stop less noisy. Different lighting conditions but you see difference in noise structure by yourself. And if look closer you can see some midtones noise in others P4K shoots even in bright daylight. I never see this with BMPCC.
    Those who calm that BMPCC have "less" color just don't get that BMPCC color science have less factory defined look, but all saturation and colors are always there and nothing is clipped. BMPCC just needs some manual adjustment or ColorChecker match profile to make it shine. Check my tests here "One more benefit to shoot RAW (colors recovery test)" http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?21154
    Color Science4 seems developed more like ready DSLR/Broadcast look with more saturation and more contrast. In combination with Sony sensor based on different technology it produces those strange artifacts.
    BTW first RAW UM4.6K samples with early firmware also produced strange clipping over the sun edges, but BM fix it lated with new version of firmware and color science. BMCC also was with "black sun" problem. That's why progress in professional industry is slower than in consumer marker. New cameras are always laggy and no one like to be a beta tester for own money. And bug fixes sometime may take years.

    P.S. I just wonder why no one still don't share a proper BMPCC vs P4K dynamic range test? Is is so complicated to shoot same light bulb in the dark with both cameras and adjust expose to same no clipping level? So we can see full gradient path from 100% white to 100% dark. This way we can compare how many additional details can be recovered from shadows and see real dynamic range limits. Something like this:

    Last edited by shijan; 10-20-2018 at 03:38 AM.
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  3. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shijan View Post
    P.S. I just wonder why no one still don't share a proper BMPCC vs P4K dynamic range test? Is is so complicated to shoot same light bulb in the dark with both cameras and adjust expose to same no clipping level? So we can see full gradient path from 100% white to 100% dark. This way we can compare how many additional details can be recovered from shadows and see real dynamic range limits. Something like this:
    Multiple people have on Pocket 4K Facebook groups and it's generally accepted that it's got slightly more DR.
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  4. #44  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    There are bmpcc vs p4k indoors dynamic range samples from folder provided by slothorp https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d6p9k043v...h43D4Aw-a?dl=0 but same as before both samples exposed slightly differently. BMPCC is 1.5-2 stops underexposed but when you recover shadows noise amount looks similar as normally exposed P4K. In deepest shadows BMPCC outperforms P4K in recovered color amount and noise look. Note that 4K downscaled to HD if you compare pixel to pixel P4K nose will look even worse




    Last edited by shijan; 10-21-2018 at 03:46 AM.
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  5. #45  
    They are both shot at their native iso with the same lens at same aperture.
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  6. #46  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    Interesting. ISO values usually never match between cameras. In digital reality ISO usually it is kind of abstract value defined by camera/sensor manufacturer. For proper compare you need to preserve highlights in exact same clipping point, or better 5% under clipping. Light clipping point is the only clear defined value for digital sensors. My suggest - shoot simple lightbulb in the dark with some objects around. Keep same lens and same f-stop but adjust shutter speed to match. This prevent optical distortions, contrast and color shift.

    BTW, did you try to shoot P4K same scene with same expose look but at low and high iso range and compare? There is a lot of unknown things about this camera yet. From tech specs high native ISO produce less dynamic range, but because high iso cleaner shadow noise probably more dynamic range could be recovered in post from shadows. From tech specs chart low native iso produces most dynamic range, but from samples i payed the deep shadow noise looks worse and "digital" and may allow less dynamic range recovery from shadows.
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  7. #47  
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    [QUOTE=shijan;255825]Yep, P4K is native ISO400 and this makes BMPCC theoretically one stop more sensitive and one stop less noisy. Different lighting conditions but you see difference in noise structure by yourself. And if look closer you can see some midtones noise in others P4K shoots even in bright daylight. I never see this with BMPCC.
    Those who calm that BMPCC have "less" color just don't get that BMPCC color science have less factory defined look, but all saturation and colors are always there and nothing is clipped. BMPCC just needs some manual adjustment or ColorChecker match profile to make it shine. Check my tests here "One more benefit to shoot RAW (colors recovery test)" http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?21154
    Color Science4 seems developed more like ready DSLR/Broadcast look with more saturation and more contrast. In combination with Sony sensor based on different technology it produces those strange artifacts.
    BTW first RAW UM4.6K samples with early firmware also produced strange clipping over the sun edges, but BM fix it lated with new version of firmware and color science. BMCC also was with "black sun" problem. That's why progress in professional industry is slower than in consumer marker. New cameras are always laggy and no one like to be a beta tester for own money. And bug fixes sometime may take years. [QUOTE]




    The difference is sensitivity is probably due to more saturated Bayer filters. The BMPCC used a Fairchild sensor with not very saturated filters and conversion efficiency in the 70% red-blue to 80% green range. My Bolex by comparison has 43% red-blue to 47% green conversion efficiency compared with its monochrome version at 79%. There is a major difference in fine color discrimination, accuracy, and saturation gamut between the two especially in warm colors. BMPCC can't do this:



    Pocket 4K is looking like it can come much closer. Despite the lower native ISO I think it is cleaner too. Was never impressed with the first gen BM cameras. I'm liking this one a lot. The Ursa 4.6K and pocket 4k are light years ahead of BM's previous efforts.
    Last edited by razz16mm; 10-21-2018 at 09:19 AM.
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  8. #48  
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    Greens are clipping (when you wouldn't expect them to with just about every camera) too.

    http://www.gamma-movie.com The IndieGathering 2016 best Sci-Fi feature screenplay.
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  9. #49  
    Senior Member DPStewart's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=razz16mm;255879][QUOTE=shijan;255825]Yep, P4K is native ISO400 and this makes BMPCC theoretically one stop more sensitive and one stop less noisy. Different lighting conditions but you see difference in noise structure by yourself. And if look closer you can see some midtones noise in others P4K shoots even in bright daylight. I never see this with BMPCC.
    Those who calm that BMPCC have "less" color just don't get that BMPCC color science have less factory defined look, but all saturation and colors are always there and nothing is clipped. BMPCC just needs some manual adjustment or ColorChecker match profile to make it shine. Check my tests here "One more benefit to shoot RAW (colors recovery test)" http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?21154
    Color Science4 seems developed more like ready DSLR/Broadcast look with more saturation and more contrast. In combination with Sony sensor based on different technology it produces those strange artifacts.
    BTW first RAW UM4.6K samples with early firmware also produced strange clipping over the sun edges, but BM fix it lated with new version of firmware and color science. BMCC also was with "black sun" problem. That's why progress in professional industry is slower than in consumer marker. New cameras are always laggy and no one like to be a beta tester for own money. And bug fixes sometime may take years.




    The difference is sensitivity is probably due to more saturated Bayer filters. The BMPCC used a Fairchild sensor with not very saturated filters and conversion efficiency in the 70% red-blue to 80% green range. My Bolex by comparison has 43% red-blue to 47% green conversion efficiency compared with its monochrome version at 79%. There is a major difference in fine color discrimination, accuracy, and saturation gamut between the two especially in warm colors. BMPCC can't do this:



    Pocket 4K is looking like it can come much closer. Despite the lower native ISO I think it is cleaner too. Was never impressed with the first gen BM cameras. I'm liking this one a lot. The Ursa 4.6K and pocket 4k are light years ahead of BM's previous efforts.
    Oh man that the shot.
    You're right - a BMPCC can't deliver that. (And I tried...)

    I loved all your Bolex stuff you would put yp.

    I frikkin' ADORE what was able to come out of that camera.

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  10. #50  
    Senior Member DPStewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squig View Post
    Greens are clipping (when you wouldn't expect them to with just about every camera) too.

    Yup.
    The color clipping is a very real thing with this P4K so far... It has also put out some AMAZING images.

    I suppose two things will happen - BMD will make some adjustments to the firmware that will improve it. And we will learn exactly what this new beast of a camera wants, and doesn't want.
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