Thread: Pocket4K vs Ursa Mini Pro matching frames

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  1. #11  
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    RESULT: Pocket4K on the left, Ursa Mini Pro on the right.
    From all the groups and forums that I posted I got exactly 50% right and 50% wrong. A couple of people mentioned some reasons for their choice but all the points where pretty much around my user error (the different contrast/saturation/fov/focus) rather than actual camera character. Of course this was a fairly low dynamic range scene and the screenshot was quite small and compressed. The main point was to show how the two cameras match together in case you want to use them in your projects. I will be talking about this and the comparison I did against the BMMCC on a video later on. I will leave people with experience in technical comparisons to provide some proper test videos.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Taikonaut's Avatar
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    Does the P4K do flip screen display like the Video Assist?
    I'm concern it does not fit the Ronin S but if I mount the camera upside down I can flip the display to the correct way up.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taikonaut View Post
    Does the P4K do flip screen display like the Video Assist?
    I'm concern it does not fit the Ronin S but if I mount the camera upside down I can flip the display to the correct way up.
    It currently does not but I mentioned it and they will try to add in the future.
    Also, it does fit on Ronin-S perfectly fine in "normal" position. The Ronin-S has two plates, one small and one large. You can displace the camera using both and I have balanced fine everything up to 800gr zoom lenses.
    Even if you were to put it upside down though the way the monitor is titled, is not that comfortable to view. In either case you won't be needing to do it. Works great as it is. If you get a cage of course you don't need to displace at all, just screw the plate on another place.
    All my footage is shot on the Ronin-S.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Taikonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pidulgi View Post
    It currently does not but I mentioned it and they will try to add in the future.
    Also, it does fit on Ronin-S perfectly fine in "normal" position. The Ronin-S has two plates, one small and one large. You can displace the camera using both and I have balanced fine everything up to 800gr zoom lenses.
    Even if you were to put it upside down though the way the monitor is titled, is not that comfortable to view. In either case you won't be needing to do it. Works great as it is. If you get a cage of course you don't need to displace at all, just screw the plate on another place.
    All my footage is shot on the Ronin-S.
    Cheers thanks
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  5. #15  
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    Hi shijan,
    I have great interest in hearing your opinion. Finally, what do you think of this new BMPCC 4K? Is this a camera worthy of replacing the old BMPCC or BMMCC?
    Compared to the ursa mini pro, is the image close? Or is the image look of the BMPCC 4K is too "video" in your opinion? Not so cinematic?
    I already have a GH5 so maybe the images are comparable...
    Thanks!
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Asyndeton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmpcc_bel View Post
    Hi shijan,
    I have great interest in hearing your opinion. Finally, what do you think of this new BMPCC 4K? Is this a camera worthy of replacing the old BMPCC or BMMCC?
    Compared to the ursa mini pro, is the image close? Or is the image look of the BMPCC 4K is too "video" in your opinion? Not so cinematic?
    I already have a GH5 so maybe the images are comparable...
    Thanks!
    You can see them compared here: https://youtu.be/QEpaaAcnf_Y

    They don’t show the entire reults of their tests but the P4K has better skin tones and color science and the better codecs are superior to the GH5 (which don’t really need a test to know that). The best of the video is when he says, “You point a camera at shit, it will look like shit.” If you want a ‘cinematic’ image, you need to shoot and grade to achieve it. It’s up to you, not a camera.

    Essentially, the P4K will not completely match the UMP, HOWEVER, it looks like they will be close and very easy to match in the grade. Comparable image to the GH5? I think the Pocket is better out of the box. Replacing older cameras? That’s up to you, the technology is superior if that’s all that matters to you.
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member DPStewart's Avatar
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    Less dynamic range. That's the difference.

    BMD lists the specs as only 13 for the P4K so there is always going to be that difference.
    But if the rest of the image matches up well, then the P4K will make an excellent B-camera to an URSA Mini Pro.
    Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
    Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmpcc_bel View Post
    Hi shijan,
    I have great interest in hearing your opinion. Finally, what do you think of this new BMPCC 4K? Is this a camera worthy of replacing the old BMPCC or BMMCC?
    Compared to the ursa mini pro, is the image close? Or is the image look of the BMPCC 4K is too "video" in your opinion? Not so cinematic?
    I already have a GH5 so maybe the images are comparable...
    Thanks!
    Sure it is better than GH5. BRAW is a nice surprise, it will allow small file sizes for 4k. Probably you can even record to older SanDisk SD cards, this save you from ugly external SSD drives. Downscaled 4k to HD always looks great. But i am not lean deeply data rates yet.

    My garage friend who helps me with CNC parts was thinking to get Pocket4K, so maybe we can compare dynamic range compare with BMMCC sometime.

    Cons compare to GH5 - no articulate screen, larger size, heavier, probably fan noise. Some moire is still there even if use BRAW, but probably OLPF filters coming soon.

    Sensor technology is different. On BMMCC when i do boost expose and lower gain trick and expand dynamic range from shadows i see less noise. Noise structure and size is different. To remove chroma noise on BMMCC i need to set it only to 10 on Pocket 4K to 20 and more. But this is all very basic tests based on different samples shared online. Until someone compare side by side and share raw files.

    I personally still like BMMCC. Super flexible transformer-like camera core. With proper workflow images looks great. Pocket 4K must be simpler. I am not a production studio and i can not allow to change camera every year.

    Sure cinematic image is all about subject. But when people shoot only film, the things where simpler. Huge dynamic range was in every consumer camera on every drunk party and no one noticed it. Technically people always like to see on the screen similar "look" as they see in real life. Try to put camera in front of you and compare the dynamic range you see with your eye to the dynamic range camera can hold. You notice that your eye outperforms any existing camera. Even without light adaptation we can see 18-20 stops or even more, and we want similar response from the camera.
    Less dynamic range - less film magic.

    And don't mess dynamic range with poor contrast. Things can be High dynamic range and contrast look same time. Jus a gentle compressed shadows and highlights without clipping. And you have freedom to adjust it as you like.

    But low dynamic range footage always have that contrast look but with hard clipped highlights.
    Last edited by shijan; 09-28-2018 at 09:55 PM.
    All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member DPStewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shijan View Post
    ... On BMMCC when i do boost expose and lower gain trick and expand dynamic range from shadows i see less noise.
    Hey mate,
    I remember you describing this once before - how exactly did you suggest doing this?
    Cameras: Blackmagic Cinema Camera, Blackmagic Pocket Camera (x2), Panasonic GH2 (x2), Sony RX100 ii, Canon 6D, Canon T2i,
    Mics: Sennheiser, AKG, Shure, Sanken, Audio-Technica, Audix
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  10. #20  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    Shoot RAW or ProRes at native ISO800
    Monitor histogram/zebra in LOG mode and don't clip any highlights. In high dynamic range scenes image may look slightly dark (underexposed).

    Set project input to BMDfilm (or Bypass depending of Color Science mode you want to use for RAW)
    Set Timeline to BMDfilm
    Set Output to Rec709 (saturation and gamma mapping on) Or you can set it to "Bypass" in project settings and just add Timeline node with Color Space transform Tool Timeline to Rec709 (saturation and gamma mapping on)

    Now to recover some hidden dynamic range from shadows in Resolve boost Expose to 1-2 stops. (up to 3 stops with noise reduction. Starting from 4-5 stops FPN in shadows became too visible and color saturation became too low)

    Add Gain node and lower the gain to recover clipped data.

    Add contrast node because this high dynamic range image may have semy-log look.

    Some extreme tests here http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20...l=1#post242117

    I also done detailed step by step description of full workflow somewhere in some posts earlier but need time to find those posts.





    P.S. I noticed that Pocket 4K have no FPN and allows more shadows recovery than older cameras but same time noise grows way faster than older cameras. It also seems have different starting point with lower dynamic range. P4K with recovered 2 stops looks like BMMCC without any recovery. But it just a guesses based on different random footage





    Last edited by shijan; 09-29-2018 at 05:07 PM.
    All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
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