Thread: Pocket4K vs Ursa Mini Pro matching frames

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  1. #1 Pocket4K vs Ursa Mini Pro matching frames 
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    I have shot the Pocket4K side by side with the Micro and the Ursa Mini Pro. In both cases, the comparison didn't end up as accurate as I would like it to be so I avoided uploading the standard vimeo comparison video with a ton of misleading factors embedded. One of the hardest things was matching the FOV with the difference size sensors, speedboosters and lenses as it requires precise calculations that I couldn't take during filming. In addition, when comparing something down to the last detail, contrast and saturation should also be matched well something that at least for me takes some time. I understand no matter what comparison I do of course, some people will be unhappy and ask why I did something this or that way or skip reading my description and missing the point entirely - it always happens in comparison videos. Nevertheless, I will be using all that material in my upcoming videos presented in the right context and with explanations.
    Meanwhile, here is a shot with the Pocket4K side by side with the Ursa Mini Pro. Both on Contax Zeiss prime lenses with identical performance and coatings. One of the two is slightly out of focus and the other has a more shallow depth of field resulting from the lenses shot more open. Both of these can be misleading. Also the images below are roughly color matched and I think there is room for improvement. In either case, I present it here for people that are looking to match those two cameras and are unsure. It will be interesting to see people's opinion about what is what.

    RESULT: Pocket4K on the left, Ursa Mini Pro on the right.
    From all the groups and forums that I posted I got exactly 50% right and 50% wrong. A couple of people mentioned some reasons for their choice but all the points where pretty much around my user error (the different contrast/saturation/fov/focus) rather than actual camera character. Of course this was a fairly low dynamic range scene and the screenshot was quite small and compressed. The main point was to show how the two cameras match together in case you want to use them in your projects. I will be talking about this and the comparison I did against the BMMCC on a video later on. I will leave people with experience in technical comparisons to provide some proper test videos.

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    Last edited by pidulgi; 09-28-2018 at 01:03 AM.
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  2. #2  
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    The first image is the P4K, and the other is Ursa Mini? Just wanted to know.
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  3. #3  
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    mm I'd say the pocket 4k is the second one and the ursa is the first. They are very similar though which is great since the ursa is a powerhouse but I went with the wider shot as the pocket because I think you used a metabones 0.64 and got a wider FoV on the pocket 4k than the ursa? Other than that I'd be guessing.
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    I see difference in colors.
    Left image looks softer

    I think we can get same look with any smartphone camera. It is all overexposed and close to clipping. There is a low dynamic range scene. This is common "Asian" look full of brightness. Also images are very small.

    1. Shoot something with high dynamic range scene (projector in the room, room with light from open window, forest)
    2. Do not clip highlights
    3. See the difference in dynamic range.
    4. Please share DNG firames to compare


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  5. #5  
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    Left image seems to have more red cast to me. Based on the new Ursa color science, that makes me thing the right image is the Ursa. I honestly just don't know enough about the Pocket sensor to pick that out, though, TBH.

    Also, I agree, if you can post these images in their original resolution, that would be a huge help. I think uploading on the board adds compression, as well, so finding a host that doesn't or does minimal compression would help.

    Not trying to get down on this comparison--definitely appreciate you taking the time out to do it. I do kinda agree with shijan, though--this isn't a particularly taxing sort of shot that might reveal a camera's differences. Mostly, I'm thinking, if that red cast could be minimized, at least the Pocket 4K and UMP seem like they'll cut nicely together.
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  6. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisA View Post
    Left image seems to have more red cast to me. Based on the new Ursa color science, that makes me thing the right image is the Ursa. I honestly just don't know enough about the Pocket sensor to pick that out, though, TBH.

    Also, I agree, if you can post these images in their original resolution, that would be a huge help. I think uploading on the board adds compression, as well, so finding a host that doesn't or does minimal compression would help.

    Not trying to get down on this comparison--definitely appreciate you taking the time out to do it. I do kinda agree with shijan, though--this isn't a particularly taxing sort of shot that might reveal a camera's differences. Mostly, I'm thinking, if that red cast could be minimized, at least the Pocket 4K and UMP seem like they'll cut nicely together.
    Thank you Travis. The point of this was not to compare the two cameras performance wise. it's unreasonable to believe the Pocket4K can perform as good as the Ursa Mini Pro. This is a test of whether the two cameras can cut together. Also, as you can see from my flawed comparison above, I'm much more into shooting than making comparison or benchmark videos. The reason I did this test was also personal so I can have some kind of benchmark against the other BM cameras and wanted to confirm for myself how this camera's characteristics compare next to the cameras I'm used to shoot with. I understand there are people interested in analysing this camera's image out of curiosity. As the cameras is shipping already I'm pretty sure within a few days there will be tons and tons of comparison videos and files to look upon or those people can get a copy of the camera themselves and do as many tests as they like.
    Last edited by pidulgi; 09-27-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member shijan's Avatar
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    I saw another Youtube compared Pocket vs Pocket4K, but it have same overexposed "ETTR" look, and it is unknown how Pocket DNG files where processed.

    From my own tests based on different shared footage older cameras have more dynamic range, less shadow noise, and more film-looking noise structure.
    Pocket 4K with less dynamic range. It also don'e have FPN. Sharper. New Color Science looks more vivid. Looks more broadcast-like

    Love to see true compare Pocket 4K with Pocket.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shijan View Post
    I saw another Youtube compared Pocket vs Pocket4K, but it have same overexposed "ETTR" look, and it is unknown how Pocket DNG files where processed.

    From my own tests based on different shared footage older cameras have more dynamic range, less shadow noise, and more film-looking noise structure.
    Pocket 4K with less dynamic range. It also don'e have FPN. Sharper. New Color Science looks more vivid. Looks more broadcast-like

    Love to see true compare Pocket 4K with Pocket.
    I have looked very closely my Micro vs Pocket4K comparison. There is a great lack of noise on the Pocket4K at the low native ISO400. Shadows are much cleaner but so are the midtones. The whole thing is many times cleaner and of course much higher definition - that results of course in a very clean look which is not what many people would call "filmic" but the DR and highlight rolloff are there in my opinion. I did not observe any lack of DR compared to the Micro. Both cameras seem to clip at the same points in quite similar way and raising shadows was definitely easier on the Pocket4K because they were cleaner. Do mind I didn't have low pass filter on the Micro so it suffered a lot from moire and bad definition. The Pocket4K did not have any such problems at least up to 200%+ zoom. When I added grain on the Pocket4K and blurred it down to lose resolution, it pseudo-matched the Micro in a similar way it matches the Ursa Mini above. Perhaps shooting the low native ISO400 underexposed (at ISO1000) or the high ISO3200 with heavy ND can result in similar characteristics with film-like analog grain. The night shots from my footage are shot on the high ISO and have an interesting character (taking about "Afterschool"). I will be talking about my comparisons in a future video, especially the with the Micro one as images can be easily misunderstood, especially in flowed comparisons like mine. In general, and without being an expert on the technical detail, I feel it's mainly the analog grain and the lower definition at the hardware level that give the micro/bmpcc the "filmic" look. The rest seem to be there in the Pocket4K and it just has to be worked on by many different cinematographers to see it under different situations and tastes. Like when working in RED above 4K some film grain will be required if filmic is the target. Also I have good feeling Braw on the Pocket4K will make things look more blended and more "filmic".
    Last edited by pidulgi; 09-27-2018 at 09:16 PM.
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  9. #9  
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    Yep, highlight rolloff in P4K looks really nice. I like Color Science v4 too. But highlight rolloff and color science it is just a kind of baked "look" from BM developers. I never liked older Color Science for Pocket and Micro same as factory LUTs for resolve. The only nice looking tool was new Color Space Transform node with Gamut and Saturation mapping.

    Noise and dynamic range is kind of not so simple. When boost shadows, 1:1 pixel P4K noise is larger in size and it is harder to remove. If downscale 4K HD noise looks way better but still there. I also noticed that unprocessed LOG files looks not so "flat" as Pocket/Micro/4.6K.
    Same time add some Chroma and very slight Luma Noise Reduction to Pocket or Micro camera footage, fix Cross Hatching by setting Input Scale Pan/Tilt to 0.5px. Add ColorChecker color correction, Color Space Transform node with Gamut and Saturation mapping, and it looks like taken from another camera.

    FPN in deepest shadows is the only problem that still exist Pocket/Micro/4.6K cameras and don't present in Pocket 4K

    But this is just my guesses based on different footage without real side by side test in similar setup.
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  10. #10  
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    I'll be shooting a lot with the Olympus Pro lenses and the P4k because of the general ease of production but knowing it's going to be a very clean and detailed look.

    I'm really interested in testing it with vintage glass for narrative work.
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