Sony IMX294 - Same Sensor in Blackmagic Pocket 4K and GH5s

[John Brawley]

The Cion was brilliant ergonomic design, but couldn't get enough out of that chip to justify the price.

I don't know about that either.

Everyone THOUGHT it was better because it LOOKED like a real camera should but it was actually incredibly front heavy and they didn't even have their own EVF. I had it on my shoulder and didn't like it at all for it's ergonomics.

There was a lot of snobbery towards BMD at the time they launched CION about how this was how a camera should be designed by BMD. (AJA and BMD are also rivals)

You could say Ursa was their response to that criticism and interestingly was also a failure (in terms of sales). Again, users think they know what they want in a product but aren't always that knowledgeable :-)

AJA basically gave up on their camera. It was still born. They didn't even try to improve it much after one firmware update. From memory you couldn't even do RAW on board, you needed another external recorder that was never released.

MANY say here they have prefered the look of the 4K sensor from BMD's cameras. But no one would say that about the same sensor in the CION.

What's always misleading in these discussions is that people assume an "off the shelf" sensor just plugs into a camera and away you go. They aren't really off the shelf at all. Even these off the shelf ones still have many points of tweaking, calibrating and customising. Also, colour science is subjective. It's not truth, but a version of truth.
There are so many ways that customisations can change the end result. It's pretty annoying to see how people assume that one sensor can be the same in different cameras. They really aren't at all. Otherwise there wouldn't be any visual difference shooting RAW from a GH5 or another camera rumoured to have the "same sensor"

Also amusing to see certain users picking apart the images stolen from an NAB pre-production demo camera by judging them from a JPEG posted and then re-graded by others.

Usually BMD make firmware builds that disable the record function for demo cameras like this for this exact reason and the sensor work is still very much WIP. I don't think it's very fair to judge the camera in this way. If you want to nitpick it and draw conclusions, wait till official footage is available and consider the images that are around right now as the direction they're heading in.

JB

[Alex.Mitchell]

I mean, so far it looks great based on what I’ve seen EXCEPT for the moire, so hopefully that changes...

[Denny Smith]

Well put John, I totally agree with you on this. We need to sit tight and wait for finished product test shots to see how this is going to stack up against other BM cameras.
Cheers

[dop16mm]

I never actually held the Cion, but it looked cool. Blackmagic seems to have gotten better results out of the same sensor because of the magic that they do behind the curtains. I expect no less from this. Just because Panasonic apparently hobbles the gh5s sensor to 11 stops doesn't mean it isn't capable of much more.

[John Brawley]

I mean, so far it looks great based on what I’ve seen EXCEPT for the moire, so hopefully that changes...

I doubt that will.

OLPFs are hard, we've talked about this before.

I actually tried some aftermarket OLPFs in the UMP and it was good and it wasn't good. It made for some unacceptable flares in certain situations, so to me in this scenario it was trading one problem for another.

I have no doubt that an OLPF can be designed that doesn't do that, but it takes a lot of time to get that right. I'd argue RED still don't have it down either in this regard, I'm still seeing OLPF flares on current RED cameras too.

JB

[shijan]

I doubt that will.

OLPFs are hard, we've talked about this before.

I actually tried some aftermarket OLPFs in the UMP and it was good and it wasn't good. It made for some unacceptable flares in certain situations, so to me in this scenario it was trading one problem for another.

I have no doubt that an OLPF can be designed that doesn't do that, but it takes a lot of time to get that right. I'd argue RED still don't have it down either in this regard, I'm still seeing OLPF flares on current RED cameras too.

JB

I also noticed that OLPF grid flare patterns on some Youtube camera tests, but never see them on my own BMMCC tests with Mosaic filter. I try hard, done special lens flare tests and post them on this forum. But can't get no any visible grid pattern OLPF flares. Maybe it depends of sensor size or pixel size, or OLPF technology or distance between OLPF filter and sensor?

[John Brawley]

I also noticed that OLPF grid flare patterns on some Youtube camera tests, but never see them on my own BMMCC tests with Mosaic filter. I try hard, done special lens flare tests and post them on this forum. But can't get no any visible grid pattern OLPF flares. Maybe it depends of sensor size or pixel size, or OLPF technology or distance between OLPF filter and sensor?

I have a different OLPF and camera combination to the one you're' referring to. I think it was because it's a "new" filter there's still some work being done to fix it. It would be unfair to be too specific or harsh as it's a prototype and they take a long long time to get right.

In my situation it was on longer focal lengths (above 50mm) and when a broad light source (not a point source) was near the edge boundary of the frame. The RED ones I refer to are the kind of thing you see at the 2:06 mark here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um0aZKbpe1Y

This is a current RED camera (actually a DXL)

JB

[spitandspite]

haha, man that cam does look sweet for someone like me looking to experiment/get some experience but i'm having fun w/ my ol' BMMSC and I'm guessing it'll be a while before kinks get worked out.

I'm just hoping all this commotion will somehow cause BM to throw us micro4k owners a bone like a film or usable RAW output

[Stefan Antonescu]

We do know that the Kinefinity Terra 4K uses the same GH5S sensor and they claims 14 Stops of dynamic range. Also the IQ of the Terra 4K is far different from the GH5S. The Terra shows us what this sensor is capable of, and it’s gorgeous.

Are we sure the Terra 4K shares the same sensor as the GH5s ? On their website they advertise a maximum resolution of 4096×2800, which is quite more than what the Panny offers...

But If that is the case indeed, it would make very happy as I LOVE the images the Kinefinity produces ! And I'm sure the Pocket 4K would be as good if not better with BM's secret sauce.