Thread: We who prefer 2K Super 16 over 4K+ Super 35 - The *unofficial* Super 16 RAW thread

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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howie Roll View Post
    Fact: A 4k S16 sensor downscaled to 2K is going to give better color sampling, less aliasing, and a finer noise pattern.
    .
    Yes. Put this in a BMPCC mkII already Blackmagic Design!
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  2. #22  
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    The current BMPCC form factor, case is a dead horse, due to its small in/out connector issues. A new more robust larger case/form factor is needed to support either ful, size A HDMI, or better yet DIN SDI outputs, like the VA and Micro Studio cameras have.

    Yes a new Pocket, with improved in/out connections and a high res screen like the VA has will be needed to support the 4K sensor.
    More likely, BM might add Filmlog Rec to the Micro Studio camera. But for Raw shooting, a new camera is needed.
    Cheers
    Last edited by Denny Smith; 01-30-2017 at 02:53 PM.
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  3. #23  
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    Personally, I'm gunning for a PL mount URSA Mini 4.6 + Canon 8-64 to shoot in the 2K crop mode. Sounds like a perfect doc setup to me. The 2K window is a little smaller than S16 gate, but I'm really hoping BM will eventually add a 2.3K Super 16 mode to the ursa. And owning that camera I will have the option of renting some Super 35 glass if I want to shoot 4K for narrative projects. So really the URSA Mini has the potential to act as both a Super 16 and Super 35 digital film camera.

    I love my Micro cam and BMCC, but I have been shooting an increasing amount of doc work and the clumsy ergonomics/lack of audio features makes them both very frustrating to work with. In my opinion its still worth it for the image quality, but seems like the URSA could be the best of both worlds.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Smith View Post
    The current BMPCC form factor, case is a dead horse, due to its small in/out connector issues. A new more robust larger case/cormfactor is needed to support either ful, size A HDMI, or better yet DIN SDI outputs, like the VA and Micro Studio cameras have.
    Agreed. The Micro HDMI is the Achilles' heel of the BMPCC. This makes a case for the BMMCC. Aww... I'm almost regretting that I didn't buy it instead of the BMPCC. On the other hand, the strongest point of the Pocket is that it is shooting straight out from the box, after applying a lens to it. On my latest short, The XmasTree Hunt, I held it as a stills camera, in my right hand grasping the grip of the camera body; I really enjoyed holding it in this way througout several hours of shooting, without any strain and walking through foliage. No accessories attached; I could easily sneak in to the action without creating unecessary attention. It is truly a guerilla style camera. Also, it has contributed tremedously to zero budget filmmaking throughout the world. It is also, amongst all BMD cameras, the choice of several rental houses and some big productions, such as A Tale of Love and Darkness, Avengers: The Age of Ultron and Mad Max Fury Road. Both unproffessionals and professionals love it. It deserves our respect. And I am proud to own it.
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  5. #25  
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    Resolution isn't everything, and after a certain point isn't the most essential aspect of a good image. Regardless if the theoretical colour depth increases with each increased photosite or pixel, the colour science of the camera and curves seems to be of more import. At least to my higly unscientific eye. As much as I hate to admit it, as I really like and respect Blackmagic Design for all of their efforts to bring the big cinema to the people, I much prefer the general look coming from the 2K Digital Bolex over the URSA 4.6 or any of the RED monsters; it almost emulates the image of the Arri ALEXA 3.2K.

    If I had the money, I would prefer to buy the Digital Bolex D16 over a Blackmagic URSA Mini 4.6 anytime. The only current Blackmagic Design camera that has caught my interest is the BMMCC, because of its 60 fps. I might buy one in the future. As the colour science of the BMPCC and BMMCC is great as well, it would probably be possible to push and pull the images to emulate the D16.

    I have not forsaken Blackmagic Design. I still love my Pocket Cinema Camera, and its organic image. I'm just saying this for the sake of an argument, that the subjective experience of any image is much more important than maths and numbers. My eyes, and probably most other's, loose the ability to se any difference post 3K. But a colour scientist (or rather artist) may create wonders with the RAW information coming uncompressed from such as small sensor as 1080p or 2K, that I and others will be able to enjoy with much pleasure.

    For me, this is movie magic and cinema mysticism
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  6. #26  
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    The only issue with the D16, is first finding one setup with the lens mount you want, and second it is an "orphaned" camera, no longer made or supported, the company that made it is out of business. But it was an interetesting camera.
    Cheers
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas Stacewicz View Post
    if it was that easy, there wouldn't exist a school contrary to yours. I didn't invent it, and I am probably its worst proponent (being a technical ignorant). The guys and gals who designed the Ikonoskop A-Cam dII and the Digital Bolex did, as well as cinematographers such as Michael Plescia, Kurt Lancaster, et al. As with statistics, you may prove anything with mathematics. It finally comes down to how you subjectively perceive the image. When looking at the URSA, I think "nice image". But I still prefer the ALEXA with its 2.8K Super 35 sensor anytime over the 4.6K of the URSA. The fact is that I find the image coming from the BMCC, BMPCC and BMMCC speaking to me more than that of the URSA. I prefer the colour science of these cameras over that of the URSA, however better the latter's is on paper. Then there is the issues of small form factor, cheaper cameras and vintage lenses (that create as wonderful images as those of Super 35 for much less price). Peraps I'm dillusional after all. But I like it
    Well, here is a Mini46 raw frame (courtesy of John Brawley) compressed at 8:1 (this is approx. the data size of a lossless Pocket frame). I've also included a 1080p .png frame exported from Resolve (using my default debayering and resize settings).
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9...3h5UVo0S2FUa0k

    I am a picky one, but I wouldn't hesitate to use this for 1080p delivery.

    Regarding lossy compression: The Alexa does tonal compression (which is lossy, you discard info which can't be recovered), and all BM cameras do tonal compression. You never get a true "uncompressed" image out of the Alexa, even if they call it this way.
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Smith View Post
    The only issue with the D16, is first finding one setup with the lens mount you want, and second it is an "orphaned" camera, no longer made or supported, the company that made it is out of business. But it was an interetesting camera.
    A sad story indeed. However, although manufacture of the D16 has ended, Digital Bolex still exists as a company, and last I heard they still do provide some kind of camera support.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpc View Post
    Well, here is a Mini46 raw frame (courtesy of John Brawley) compressed at 8:1 (this is approx. the data size of a lossless Pocket frame). I've also included a 1080p .png frame exported from Resolve (using my default debayering and resize settings).
    Sorry, didn't manage to open your file, only John's.

    Regarding lossy compression: The Alexa does tonal compression (which is lossy, you discard info which can't be recovered), and all BM cameras do tonal compression. You never get a true "uncompressed" image out of the Alexa, even if they call it this way.
    Sad to hear, but then again, this is another case for a smaller format that can manage to deliver truly uncompressed RAW. And are you saying that there is no such thing as a lossless compression in BMD cameras?
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas Stacewicz View Post
    Sorry, didn't manage to open your file, only John's.
    Weird, it is a standard PNG image, a format used all over the intermet. The default Windows picture viewer should open it fine (or any browser you have on your computer, for that matter). I've deliberately used png since it is lossless (unlike jpeg).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas Stacewicz View Post
    Sad to hear, but then again, this is another case for a smaller format that can manage to deliver truly uncompressed RAW. And are you saying that there is no such thing as a lossless compression in BMD cameras?
    I am saying that it is no use obsessing over semantics. (Even negative film does tonal compression as film density is a logarithmic function of light intensity. You do lose information proportionally to scene brightness.)
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  10. #30  
    I prefer anytime 2K rolling shutter black magic camera's over the 4K camera's
    Why ??
    The reason is simpel it's more cinematic
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