Thread: We who prefer 2K Super 16 over 4K+ Super 35 - The *unofficial* Super 16 RAW thread

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  1. #161  
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    Yeah, I think the speed of the market shift to 4k was a major consideration in Digital Bolex ceasing production of the D16. They were evaluating sensors for a next gen 4k version, but as of now nothing satisfactory is available off the shelf to a boutique builder Like DB. Looking for similar properties to the Kodak sensor for refined wide gamut color, global shutter, usable clean DR of 12 stops or better in RAW. Sony has some potential candidates in their 1" class 4k backlit sensors, but those are not available over the counter.

    As my user name suggests, I am a big fan of the S16mm sized camera formats in general. I like the aesthetics of it and the potential for compact camera and lens systems of moderate weight. One of my zooms is a classic Angenieux 12-240 f/3.2-4.8. Equivalent to approximately 35mm-750mm range on an ff35 format. Makes a very practical birding package for day hikes with my D16. No lens changes needed.
    Last edited by razz16mm; 02-18-2017 at 12:13 PM.
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  2. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    Be satisfied with what's available.
    Now that's a great way to halt progress.
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  3. #163  
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    A clip to remind us of how well footage from the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera may look in the hands of a true artist:

    https://guerillafilmsoldier.wordpress.com/

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  4. #164  
    Senior Member Tomas Stacewicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    Who gives a s__t... I look at the picture on the screen, that's how I make my judgements... all this technical BS is counterproductive and reinforces the marketing of more and more product.. Be satisfied with what's available and take the power away from the boardroom...
    I agree. As an anology (and diagnosis of my mindset) I still watch my DVDs and Blu-rays on a over a decade old DLP projector, which has a native resolution of 1024 x 576, i.e. 16:9 standard definition. It can recognise upscaled HDMI signals up to 720p and 1080i; I prefer to uscale my DVDs to 720p and downscale my Blu-rays to 720p, as I noticed that my projector downscaled 1080i to 540p; there is lots less aliasing in 720p compared to 1080i. And I still haven't upgraded it to one of tne newer HD projectors with all the latest bells and whistles, as I (and the rest of my family, and friends) am fully satisfied with the image, which involves me in the story and the vision. The particular model has a reputedly good colour science which I feel reluctant to trade-off for higher resolution, which I could get for half of the price today that I spent on it 12 years ago. I did a major shootout with it, just after that I had bought it, comparing it to much more expensive and brand new HD projectors (my projector already was and older model when I bought it), and it did very well impressing many present. It has a very sharp Zeiss lens, so I even have the focus off a bit to soften the image and take away some of the low res grid pattern. I have no plans of buying a new one, as I love the image. So yes, it is good to be content with what one has, as there is a tendency in the film business, both at the producing end and the receiving end, to get the latest gimmick. It is good to take a deep breath, calm down and actually reconcile oneself with what one has, and take pleasure from it.
    Last edited by Tomas Stacewicz; 02-20-2017 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Typo & clarification
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  5. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.Mitchell View Post
    Anyone who claims that they don't see that difference has never seen good 4k source material on a 4k screen. Period.
    2K Super 16 has it's place, and that's mostly outside these technical discussions, where such things simply matter much less than content. Technically you are right, but how much does that really matter?
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  6. #166  
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    Quote Originally Posted by razz16mm View Post
    I think some of Sony's newer backlit technology sensors could possibly work, but you can't buy those.
    What are Sony's rules? Last month they announced one that is 3208 x 2200 pixels, 4.5 microns each. So it's 14.44 x 9.9 mm, a bit bigger than Super 16 (12.52 x 7.41).
    But if you take a 2880 x 1620 crop of it, it is 12.96 x 7.29. The diagonal (14.87) would be just a third of a millimeter over Super 16's (14.55).

    Other features: global shutter, 80 dB (13.3 stops), 172 fps, dual-gain analog-digital-converter (isn't that part of Alexa's processing?). So it seems like, at least on paper: Alexa's resolution, nearly the dynamic range, and something the Alexa doesn't have --- global shutter --- but in Super 16.

    https://www.electronicsweekly.com/ne...-sony-2017-08/

    http://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/produc...0LQJ_Flyer.pdf
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  7. #167  
    My own thoughts are that whilst I had 2K Super16mm courtesy of the SI2K, less the de-bayer bit, one did eventually wish after the 35mm film-like format. So I did embrace the groundglass 35mm adaptors and got good technical results from them. However as a real-world appliance they were a bit of a nightmare to live with. You had to be on their case meticulously. Then came RED and the Canon DSLR cameras and overnight, the groundglass 35mm adaptors bit the dust.

    My current adventure with the SI2K is the Metabones Speedbooster for the BMPCC which means I can use my old Nikon lens set I had built up for the 35mm groundglass adaptor. Properly trimmed, it works like a dream.

    Then for the sake of building an archive of a sail training ship in a state of partial dismantlement for a script I am writing which depicts the ship in such a state, to future-proof the images as much as I could, I bought a used URSA 4K at a discounted price and made a dumb Nikon F-Mount for it. I have not touched the SI2K since.

    The big URSA can do near-to 2K with the B4-Mount adaptor and HDCAM lenses or with its original PL-Mount, Super16mm lenses and either windowed sensor or crop in post. It looks quite good and is easier technically because of the on-board sound and phantom power the SI2K does not have without an added mixer.

    I still like the SI2K for events with its long available single-take recording times to the solid state drives and the cineform codec but the big URSA does the same job as well and easier.

    The Super16mm digital cinema format is one which replicates, with careful workmanship, the Super16mm film aesthetic, without of course the grain artifacts, unless you deliberately gain up as you can with the SI2K to generate them or add the effect in post. It is one of those creative things which has its place as part of the choices a person wants to make. The limitation and the trend away from Super16mm film and its digital emulators is the future expectations of audiences. They can be a fickle and trend-following lot. A style can go out of fashion very quickly and date a film.

    Like the 35mm groundglass adaptors, I sadly feel that Super16mm film and digital cinema will fall into a well worn niche. Due to lesser production value-adding because of budget limitations, it may not often realise its full potential. Some films shot on 1/2" and 2/3" digital with 35mm adaptors, when given the same production value adding as 35mm film gave very little if nothing away in terms of how they worked with an audience. "Dear Wendy", "Monsters" and "Merantau" were realised on small camera formats with 35mm groundglass adaptors with appropriate value-adding.

    I understand that "The Last King of Scotland" was shot on Super16mm film. I certainly did not observe anything "off" with the vision as the story and its realisation engaged me. "The Walking Dead" has been shot with Super16mm film, I assume for a particular aesthetic as well as for budgetary reasons. It was a curiously compelling watch for me as I am not overly fond of episodic television.

    Compared with dragging a big URSA and the SI2K/P+S recorder around, the small BMPCC is a lightweight romp in the park even with the need to hang all manner of cables and cages on it at about 5% of the cost of the original fully built up SI2K when it came out. The BMPCC with the Super16mm Optars on the camera and suitable filters is a lot easier to live with but the reliabiity of the SI2K and its ability to repair damaged files in-camera when some fool disconnects power is hard to beat. - It is all horses for courses.

    That stream of consciousness became a bit pedantic didn't it.
    Last edited by Robert Hart; 09-08-2017 at 05:56 AM.
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  8. #168  
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    If one is not put off by the size and weight, the Ursa mini-pro is perfectly capable of shooting windowed 2k in several formats, including 2k DCI. Fit it with a B4 mount and a good ENG wide range fast zoom and it should make a fine run and gun doc camera.
    The modern 1" video format cameras have taken over this niche, but so far they all come with fixed zooms and compressed video codecs. Fine for most industrial and news applications, but lacking the creative depth for serious small format productions.
    Personally I think the size and form factor of the UMP is close to ideal. Cameras can be too small and too light for decent handheld shooting without external gear like gimbals. My D16 rigged with a 12-120 and EVF for hand held shooting weighs in at 8Lbs, or 6-1/2 lbs with small primes. Very comfortable for me for extended hand held shooting when handled properly. I have carried it around street festivals for several hours straight without excessive fatigue. Ergonomically it is much handier and more comfortable to use this way than a Canon EOS or DSLR form factor camera.
    I like the aesthetics of S16mm sized formats.
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  9. #169  
    Nothing approved the BMCC and BMPCC camera's according to cinema look until yet
    BM is start to hunting on sony . canon , panasonic market and loose there unique thoughts about making real cinema camera's beside thinking about resolution , resolution , resolution
    I hope that someone take initiative to create a separate forum for the filmakers S16 and that wonderful magic filmlook camera's we have.
    Because this forum is not exiting me anymore ............
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