Thread: We who prefer 2K Super 16 over 4K+ Super 35 - The *unofficial* Super 16 RAW thread

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  1. #191  
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    But is it that ? Take a look at this clip ..... https://vimeo.com/143916968
    Yes. There is nothing in that footage that can't be achieved by other cinema sensors with fast readouts.

    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    Its everything about the clip. Not just the colour. The scenes out in the wilds...have a ...look to them. Its like one can almost feel the footage for want of a better description. Its not ALL of the clip, but parts of it just seem to be...something I cant put words too.
    The "look" is something colorists spend countless hours perfecting. If you looked at a log version of these videos there wouldn't be anything capturing your attention. Different cameras and lenses can bring you closer to a certain look out of camera, but it's all achievable regardless. Unless, of course, you're shooting on some Sony with a 2000ms sensor readout

    Try breaking it down. Start to separate everything apart that's not the sensor and it will become visible to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    What is the point of 8K with 16 stops of DR through the sharpest lens ever put on a lens projector if the final footage is cold and clinical and it feels like I am watching more of the same footage I see all around me daily? Footage that does not stir the heart / mind into to wanting more?
    If it looks clinical it's because it was shot that way and was graded that way. The point is that you can choose to make the footage look however you want with more flexibility. It's easy to make an 8K helium look like 16mm through a hazey lens if you want.

    You can always manipulate a larger sensor to record like a smaller one, you can't make a smaller one behave like a larger one.
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  2. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeranSimpson View Post
    The "look" is something colorists spend countless hours perfecting.
    I feel like you're channeling the Steve Yedlin Display Prep Demo thing, and I'm all about that; cameras are way more flexible than people give them credit for and it does bother me how people pick a camera to pick a look when it only takes a little work to make any camera perform to your personal tastes.

    However...

    There are things that you simply can't change in the colour suite, like the rendition of motion, the full dynamic range of the sensor, the spatial resolution of the sensor, the filtration in front of the sensor, and the colour separation achieved by the strength of the BFA or other mitigating factors (e.g. backside illumination). All of those things contribute uniquely and indelibly to the image and shouldn't be ignored when you're selecting the camera system you're going to work with.
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  3. #193  
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    Thanks for the update on the D16 sensor Alex. I too liked the look of the D16, and came real close buying a used one, shortly after they stopped making them.
    Cheers
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  4. #194  
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    I owned a D16 with the Hot Rod Camera PL mount and it was a very unique camera that had great potential.

    The Kodak CCD was golden and the camera had many great features like the built in SSD for RAW recording. It was tiny and self contained. I really, really wanted this camera to succeed, in main part because of the potential of the Kodak CCD and the tiny size. I also like the Super16 format.

    The biggest problem was that they didn't get the color science right until few weeks before they folded. That should have been the number one priority. Not leather camera bags or other items that have nothing to do with the most important factor for any camera. Image quality. For most of its existence the camera had difficulties with color accuracy. Some call it a 'look', but it wasn't viable for truly professional use. Bleeding reds and magenta skin are problems, not a look. For a long time the workflow was very poorly documented. It was truly frustrating. You could literally see the potential of this camera, but it was always out of reach.

    The CF card offloading was outdated. They should have switched to a removable SSD.

    The hipster marketing was terrible. The box it shipped in looked like a retro 50's kids toy that none but the most open minded would have taken serious. All of that worked against what was a camera with enormous potential.

    I felt bad for the D16 crew when the camera tanked. They were a nice bunch of people and put an enormous amount of work into it getting it off the ground. But the camera business is pretty brutal. You need really deep pockets to compete
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  5. #195  
    The latest firmware for the D16 seems to have got the colours sorted out. Now to find one for less then the cost of the UMP G2 !

    Its definitely an interesting "look" - however it is achieved.

    @Alex, really appreciate the insight to this, thanks.

    Well I can keep watching D16 footage all night long, it aint going to get me one. I do admire the footage from those who make it sing (AJ and the rest)
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  6. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    The latest firmware for the D16 seems to have got the colours sorted out.
    Unfortunately there are still some problems as of firmware 1.5.1--there's an issue with blue shadows, especially at higher ISOs and lower colour temperatures. If you use SlimRAW you can work around it though, which is what I do.

    As another historical clarification though, the thing that really sank the D16 was that the company making the sensor (TrueSense) got bought by another company (ON-Semiconductor) and then jacked up prices. The cost of those sensors got so high that they'd have to charge more per camera, which would hurt their already small sales. Joe is still really motivated to make a Mk2 version and also a D35, but the money just isn't there right now. Eddie and the guys have even picked out the sensor they want to use already but like I said, there's a slim chance it'd ever happen.
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  7. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.Mitchell View Post
    Joe is still really motivated to make a Mk2 version and also a D35, but the money just isn't there right now. Eddie and the guys have even picked out the sensor they want to use already but like I said, there's a slim chance it'd ever happen.
    Wow ! That is really interesting! Do you think Joee ever comes by here ? (Hey Joe, love your camera!) A Mk2 would be wonderbar ! How much are they talking to get it up and going ? Kickstarter money or Zuckerberg money ?
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  8. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by M&M's View Post
    Wow ! That is really interesting! Do you think Joee ever comes by here ? (Hey Joe, love your camera!) A Mk2 would be wonderbar ! How much are they talking to get it up and going ? Kickstarter money or Zuckerberg money ?
    I don't think Joe swings by but Eddie used to lurk here; pretty sure he even posted in this thread before. It's a significant amount of money they'd need though; the kickstarter cash was just a fraction of what they'd raised for all the costs they'd need to cover before they delivered the first body. Like I said, there's very little chance it'd happen. Still, if you have a spare few million just laying around under the seat in your Porsche I'm sure they'd love to oblige you.
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  9. #199  
    My Porsche is off the road - needs new tyres !

    Well if its not something that could be raised on Kickstarter then its most likely not going to happen. Shame because they managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat once before. Would be amazing to see what they could do with later tech then they had back in the day.

    I suppose the most common sense approach to all this then is to carry on down the path of the UMB (for true S16) and keep on eye on the for sale columns for the day a good D16 package at a reasonable price pops up.

    It almost seems that the D16 is a way to be a Purple Cow (if you have not read this book by Seth Godin you are missing out on a gem) in a crowded "I can shot movies too" atmosphere.

    One thing I always find amusing....the camera is only 400 ISO. When I first started shooting, Kodachrome 64 was the gold standard, Ektachrome 100 was as fast as you dared if you wanted some semblance of quality and 400 was out on the edge Fassssssst if you could deal with all the grain !

    Looking at todays ISO's I dont know how we managed to survive and tell the tale at ISO 64 and 100.


    **Edit**

    Because I am such a swell guy, I am posting this link to make it easy for you. You can repay me later. I prefer to be paid in beautiful S16 glass. Thanks.

    https://seths.blog/
    Last edited by M&M's; 05-24-2019 at 01:44 AM.
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  10. #200  
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    Interesting, reminds me of a editorial columnist I once knew. Going back to the D16, one mint kit just sold at auction for $5650, on eBay, another sits there for around $7K price as a BIN. When the D16 was first discontinued, I had a chance to get a mint copy of the latest version for $3800, kind of wish I had now...
    Cheers
    Last edited by Denny Smith; 05-25-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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