Thread: VisionColor introduces Spektrum

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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4saken View Post
    Then you are probably not using them the right way. I've used their LUTs on many projects in the past and never had problems of them destroying footage.
    I agree, many people who complained about them on online forums that I could see are those who just didn't know how to use them. There's a thread on this very forum as well that had one person complain why their footage didn't look "right" after applying the Cineon AND FC combined, which is a big no-no and only causes blown out colors.

    When used right, the results are spectacular and I'm excited for what they have in store for November. Also their clientele seems to grow in Hollywood as well used by colorists such as Dannah Collins (The Theory of Everything, X-Men: Days of Future Past) and Steven J. Scott (Gravity, Ant-Man, Captain America:Civil War) to name just a few.

    It's an impressively powerful package that, imho, is the best on the market for luts packages.
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  2. #12  
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    I've been using some of these for some time as well. Created an awesome Mad Max look one time when I pushed one of their LUTs towards green.
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  3. #13  
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    Some of their LUTs introduced quite an amount of noise when directly compared to other LUTs or correcting and grading the footage yourself, but that's just my experience.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by stip View Post
    Some of their LUTs introduced quite an amount of noise when directly compared to other LUTs or correcting and grading the footage yourself, but that's just my experience.
    I like their luts but yes that definitely happens.
    www.lightformfilm.com
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Frank Glencairn's Avatar
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    Yeah, what ever happened to it?
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by stip View Post
    Some of their LUTs introduced quite an amount of noise when directly compared to other LUTs or correcting and grading the footage yourself, but that's just my experience.
    Let's talk about this.. and some other things regarding VC.

    First thing: Vision Color luts are not "paste and apply method" luts you find these days (i.e filmconvert, lightworks, etc). They are mathematically engineered, yes Engineered, to emulate the color space of Film.

    What does that mean? It means you can't just shoot any footage with any f-stop/luminance values and just slap a lut and expect great results.

    Vision Color explicitly states when you purchase any of their products, particularly the impulz version, you need to treat as if you're shooting on that particular film stock.

    Let's look at a sample workflow I've seen people on youtube/vimeo post when they use these luts wrongly:

    Example A) They typically set up their editor (resolve) and right away go to their footage on the color page.

    They do their primary grade and secondary's with the bmdfilm or log format they have. Then they "slap" a lut on a serial node. The footage looks quite crap. Why?
    Because they made all their corrections prior to the lut without taking into account that these luts have their own color space/gamma/values. This is one popular way that they're used incorrectly.

    Another is when they first put the lut in the node tree, which is fine. But they put the fc or fpe lut on the footage. Visually, it looks fine and the footage certainly pops out. But what happens when you start grading? The footage becomes noisier, looks compressed, looks like shit. Why?
    Because any grading should be done BEFORE the lut(s) are applied.

    But wait a minute.. didn't I contradict myself with the first example? A-ha, therein lies where the real culprit of issues stems from. You NEED to have an output and/or input lut already placed in your 'color management' tab in the setting manager BEFORE you start any grading process.

    Let's take a look at how a correct way for Impulz should go:

    Example B) Before we delve into the right way, let's look at what vision color offers in their package.

    This is what output/gamma they offer, in their own words -

    Film Contrast (FC): Non-linear distribution of image saturation with a film-like gamma curve.

    Film Print (FPE): Industry standard Vision 2383 film print. Medium contrast/saturation print stock.

    VisionSpaceTM (VS): Our custom gamma response which is ideal for starting your grade. Just enough contrast to get you started in the right direction without blowing out highlights or shadows and the same non-linear saturation as our film contrast profiles.

    Cineon® LOG (CIN): Industry standard Cineon LOG compound gamma (95-685). This output emulates the gamma response of the DPX scans from the film scanners (Hasselblad Flextight X5 & ArriScan 4k btw). Resulting negative emulations are compatible with all film print emulations that expect a true cineon curve as input and provide a perfect starting point for fully fledged color grading.

    **Important Note** = you can only use ONE of these for your color space. I have read people who cross an FC lut with an FPE lut on the same footage and wonder what the hell happened to their image(s). If you use two (you should never use two or more) luts like these in the same image, you have to stretch the image beyond its color space to make it even look normal, which by that point you'll have destroyed the image anyway, even if you shot on raw.

    FC, FPE and VS you can put as a singular output in Color management settings under the 3d output. However, I found the best AND (this is important) accurate way to use these luts is for their cineon values. No company out there has come close to what VC has done emulating the film DI process when it comes to Cineon. I'm going to skip explaining what the Cineon process actually is regarding the DI due to time constraints. I will say this about the process: you can't expect to shoot and expose how you would normally for your digital camera whether it's log, raw, slog, etc. You need to take into consideration that the "emulation" in their marketing isn't geared for people to use it in any setting, it's for people who want to shoot on film like stocks and have the same process when it's time for color grading.

    Take a look at some of the stocks they have, particularly the current industry used Kodak negative stocks such as -

    - Kodak Vision3 50D 5203, Kodak Vision3 250D 5207, Kodak Vision3 200T 5213, Kodak Vision3 500T 5219, etc

    Take a look at this page now and read through the different manuals for these same negative stocks: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Produ...on/default.htm

    Did you see all the things you have to take into consideration before shooting on those stocks? How you need to think about the T-stop, brightness-luminance values, indoor/outdoor qualities, etc for these stocks?

    I don't know what your footage looked like. But I'm betting you didn't really think about lighting your frames with the exact stock in mind. For example, for a 500T 5219 Kodak negative stock you need to shoot in an indoor setting/studio with tungsten lighting (hence the 'T' in the name) or even a daylight interior setting with window light as your main source for filming. This is NOT a good stock to shoot on outdoors where light leaks, wild lighting can occur.

    The noise that you encountered is the same thing as when you stretch an image a bit beyond its limit in the light values. So if you shot your footage with a setting or T-stop that looked good on raw on your monitor, and you got significant noise in parts of your image after putting say, a 5219 lut is because the negative stock didn't match with its intended setting. This is where a good monitor where you could preview luts comes in, such as an Atmos, smallhd or even the BM assist.


    Back to cineon. It's the best way to use the luts due to the results it delivers in terms of emulating the film gamma.

    Impulz comes in 16 negative stock options, including the aforementioned Kodak stocks.
    It then comes with 7 Film Print options for delivering.

    Simplified version -> You can put any of the 16 negative stock in the 3d lut Input section under project settings.
    Then you will put any of the 7 Film Print options in the 3d lut Output section under project settings.

    BUT, once again. You must know what stock you'll want to shoot and learn its values. Again I'll mention, when they said they engineered the luts to follow their real life counterparts, they weren't joking. It's work, but that's what shooting on film is for DPs and colorists. 3D Luts are not meant to be an easy, quick application that solves all image problems. When you pick a stock you'll know you want to emulate, and then expose shots/light accordingly, you'll be astonished the world of difference it can do.


    Hope this helps some. Sorry if it came off a bit condescending but it drives me mad that with all the info out there, there's this misconception that 3D luts are magical paintbrushes that makes any footage look like film and perfect.

    *Also, regarding Spektrum my friend says it should be out for beta around end of next month and released for January 2017. Though it could possibly skip the beta and go straight into release a bit earlier. All they need to do is refine and test for all digital cameras that are active from the Alexa all the way to the Canon Cinestyle profile.
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  8. #18  
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    Great post! I wish the best for Vision Color, it is a very serious company!
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  9. #19  
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    Yeah, best explanation ever
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  10. #20  
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    Kudos cchriswake! That is spot on. I have the Impulz LUTs and I found out right away that in order to achieve the results that they are marketing, you need to approach this with a mindset of learning exactly how these LUTs respond with the particular camera you are using, which requires extensive testing prior to shooting your project. As mentioned, if used incorrectly, you will find all kinds of issues with your footage, noise being one of them. So, great explanation and thank you for taking the time. And by the way, someone may get lucky and drop these LUTs on their footage and have great results. Probably means the footage was well shot and happened to match the LUTs being used fairly well. Which might lead one to think they are magical, but in essence just means we all get lucky sometimes. I think the correct approach is to read up on the stocks as cchriswake suggests and then run them through some thorough testing. That will lead to great results.
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