Thread: 8K URSA coming 2016?

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 88
  1. #1 8K URSA coming 2016? 
    I heard some talk about an 8K full frame being introduced at NAB next year. Anyone know more?
    As the current URSA already supports 8K at 30 frames per second it doesn't seem that far off. The new 4.6k sensor electronics support 60fps readout at 8K. All they would need to do is scale up the sensor size, place it in the URSA body and done. URSA 8K.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Taking a Vacation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    4,633
    My sources said 9K to outpace RED but the URSA will need to go back to the factory for some internal tuning. Also heard the factory adjustments would be free. Gotta love BM!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    2,885
    I question the validity of your source. Scalling the 4.6K sensor up to full frame may get it to 8K, or close to it (haven't done the math), but recording real-time CinemaDNG RAW at that resolution is very expensive. They'd need super fast media with a super fast connection to camera. The camera would need super fast circutry as well. Not saying its impossible, but in order to do it efficently they'd have to invent a new codec similar to RED Code. This would cost a lot of time and money, and we'd be looking at a far more expensive camera than they are used to giving us. Maybe 2017 but I doubt they'd be ready to make an inexpensive 8K RAW camera in a year. Just my 2 cents.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Monterey, CA
    Posts
    452
    I have an old friend from high school who spent $200,000 on a Lamborghini that's capable of 200mph. In California the maximum speed limit is 70mph - on limited stretches of freeway.

    Call me dense, but I just don't get it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    149
    I also heard blackmagic is starting a 'trade your red for an ursa' campaign! Those aussies... I'll tell ya.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    I have an old friend from high school who spent $200,000 on a Lamborghini that's capable of 200mph. In California the maximum speed limit is 70mph - on limited stretches of freeway.

    Call me dense, but I just don't get it.
    I don't get that either. A few years ago, my Diamond Katana took me from San Diego to Las Vegas in 2.5 hours (all legal). On the ground, that's about a 6 hour trip. $200,000 buys a very nice used airplane that can actually go 200mph.

    With 20:15 vision, resolution is more important to me than most people, but now that we've reached 4K, I'm more interested in other image quality aspects. Black magic has dynamic range covered, but how well do their cameras cover the upcoming Rec2020 color gamut? This article indicates that many one chip sensors still have room for improvement.

    http://www.provideocoalition.com/tlc...sm-block-makes

    David
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    I heard some talk
    Hmm

    about an 8K
    Grrr

    All they would need to do is scale up the sensor size
    All you would need to do is a little math before posting.

    36 25.34 4.6 = 6.5
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    23
    This resolution chasing game is hilarious and infuriating at the same time. Black Magic does not compete with RED, Black Magic does not NEED to compete with RED. It's a totally different market share. Let RED pander to the idiots who think pumping up the resolution another 10,000 more pixels will somehow improve the quality of their image. You can put RED 16k or whatever they currently have again the 2.8k footage shot from an ARRI Alexa and ARRI's footage will absolutely destroy it. This 8k, 16k, 10 million k marketing gimmick is preying on insecure gear obsessed people who ignore actually important features like dynamic range, global shutter, etc.

    I mean really, 8k? Really? The average consumer can't even afford a 4k TV, not to mention most movies master in 2k right now. I feel like I'm being trolled but people are such gullible consumers these days I never really can be sure.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member rick.lang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Victoria BC Canada
    Posts
    3,951
    Here's some math. Scaling up the 4.6K sensor to an 8K sensor. I'll assume you mean a sensor then 8192 x 4608 photosites which would be almost 3.2x the number of photosites to their 4.6K sensor. Keeping the photosites 5.5 microns gives you a sensor 45.056mm x 25.344mm. Compare that to the RED 8K Dragon at 40.96mm x 21.60mm. Your image circle would need to cover 51.7mm; compare that to RED at 46.3mm. There are a good number of cinema lenses designed for Super 35 that indeed will cover the RED 8K Dragon. But adding more than 5mm to the image circle would likely put you into a whole new set of lenses that are designed for larger formats. Size does matter. It means greater weight and more dollars.

    Let's do a different view of scaling the sensor by shrinking the photosites. RED Dragon uses a 5 micron sensor. Let's say BMD wants you to be able to use your current lenses at 8K (even that leads to a problem of what the lens will resolve). A photosite of 3.1 microns is close enough to the size to be feasible. But that size may not give you the dynamic range you need. Okay, let's try again. A sensor with 8192 photosites at 36mm can be done with photosites 4.4 microns. Maybe feasible and certainly reasonable to find some lenses that will work.

    Now assume the camera has captured 8192 x 4608 photosites. Again 3.2x current 4.6K. And you want raw with full sensor readout. The current CFast 2 cards are going to struggle with compressed raw. ProRes 444 XQ 12 bits? For extreme ultra high definition video 7680 x 4320 that is four times the bitrate of UHD. HFR may not be possible for 12bit ProRes. 30 fps would require a bandwidth of almost 1 GB/s. It could be done with dual recording at some point. It's likely only to be supported at 24/25 fps and would require about 415 MB/s recordings on each card in dual recording mode. Again today the off-the-shelf CFast 2 cards likely won't be reliable. Tomorrow, maybe?

    I don't see BMD tackling 8K in 2016, but 6K could be done more easily. The RED forum has many people who can't wait to do 8K and feel it is the long term destination for broadcast. As you are aware, Japan and South Korea are committed to 8K broadcast. 4K is just getting traction now, and may become the standard for broadcast at some point in the not too distant future. 6K acquisition can generate excellent 4K for years to come. 4.6K can do it too.

    It seems like the race for 8K will be run for a very small market at this juncture. Nothing I'm thinking that will affect 99.9% of consumers in this decade. It's so hard to speak intelligently about anything five years away at best.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by manzo View Post
    important features like dynamic range, global shutter, etc.
    Yes, in fact, resolution works against other features:

    - Global shutter
    - Dynamic range
    - ISO
    - Maximum frame rate
    - Recording time
    - Price

    2K is all that's really visible at comfortable viewing distances. Once you reach that, you're just throwing away the other features mentioned above for resolution you'll never use. I will allow that 4K might be useful some of the time for some of the people. Fine, 4K, then. But now that we're at 4K, it's totally insane to go to 8K or even 6K. You can't see the pixels, unless you step up to the TV. Good luck getting into the story with your nose against the screen. In the meantime you are throwing away things that are visible at any viewing distance (dynamic range, ISO) or that are felt even before that (recording time, media costs, camera costs).
    Last edited by combatentropy; 06-17-2015 at 06:38 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. Cheap alternative to C-Fast for Ursa-Ursa Mini
    By Max Minoia in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 02-09-2016, 07:06 AM
  2. Ursa or Ursa Mini- Upgradeablility vs. Versatility
    By pharpsied in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 05-28-2015, 11:48 PM
  3. 2.5k prores coming or not?
    By marshallbaker in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-17-2013, 04:56 AM
  4. My Camera is coming help!
    By Sherman Tillman in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-25-2013, 05:48 PM
  5. Which lenses coming from GH2?
    By BM4EVER in forum Lens Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-30-2012, 10:01 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •